Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • Users
  • Groups
Skins
  • Light
  • Brite
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (No Skin)
  • No Skin
Collapse
Logo that says

Flow Battery Research Collective

administrators

Private

Posts


  • Designing the large-format cell
    kirkK kirk

    Did another leak test today with water, correctly with 2x ~12 mm plywood endplates each side. Saw no leaks through the edges which was great news, but the barbed connections on the cell showed signs. Also, the MP-6R pumps struggle with the current flow frame design, which has 0.8 mm wall thickness and a 1 mm internal channel (electrode area therefore 2x0.8 + 1 = 2.6 mm thick). I remade (and pushed to the repo) the flow frame with a 3 mm internal thickness, in order to alleviate this pressure drop.

    Here is the test setup, I ran out of tubing (ordered 2m but they sent 1 m 😕 ), so the connections aren't ideal but this time no kinks in the flow path. Note, I put these drain valves in, of course they are pointing the wrong way for now, will need to elevate the setup so they can point down in the future.

    9fafda86-7f70-439f-9ecb-eeb9a7316215-IMG_20260129_153901.jpg

    Because all the connections are on one side (in anticipation of stacking these cells), I also made "front" and "rear" versions of endplates, inner/outer current collectors, and gaskets in the FreeCAD files. This will make low-volume prototyping a bit more expensive but more robust against leaks, which no one wants!

    image.png
    This is the dimension that went from 1 mm to 3 mm to facilitate using MP-6R pumps.

    d4ac6efb-4694-4d13-a941-8ffb85995001-image.png
    We have the MP-6R now. It is the 6W high-flow version. the MP-10 is also 6W but lower flow / 50 % higher max pressure, then the MP-15R can do almost 3x higher pressure than the MP-6R but at 10 W.

    @danielfp248 can hopefully print the 3mm flow frames and I can get them at FOSDEM, then try them out. If it turns out we need the bigger pumps, I'll order them from AliExpress:
    f14b9379-cbc5-4542-940c-b33c0bacdb14-image.png

    General Discussion

  • Come see FBRC at FOSDEM 2026!
    kirkK kirk

    We will be presenting at FOSDEM 2026 and hope to see you there! Kirk and Daniel will be presenting at 12:30 on Saturday, January 31 in the Energy track in room AW1.126. Full details here, including the link to the livestream (talk should also be recorded and watchable later).

    The title of the talk is "Scaling up open-source batteries: what's worth pursuing?". Here is the abstract:

    Storing energy reversibly is useful. For clean energy, electrochemical batteries are one of the most attractive options. Most battery technology is proprietary, hard to recycle, and complicated to manufacture. What if that wasn't the case?

    We will present our collective and individual efforts with the Flow Battery Research Collective (https://fbrc.dev/) to build open-source batteries for stationary storage applications. This includes our flow battery work, such as efforts to build a larger-format cell with simple manufacturing techniques like laser cutting and FDM printing, as well as our different experiments with flow battery electrolytes based on zinc, iodine, iron, and manganese.

    We will also cover our individual efforts to build conventional, non-flow flooded batteries based on water and the above elements (including this work by the speaker Daniel: https://chemisting.com/2025/05/23/a-low-cost-open-source-cu-mn-rechargeable-static-battery/). We will discuss the economic hurdles facing practical implementations of these systems.

    Announcements

  • Designing the large-format cell
    kirkK kirk

    hey @DDM ! It's moving along slowly but surely. I had to move my lab around a couple times in the last months which has slowed things down a lot, just starting to get back to things!

    Doing some initial leak tests with water, seems like we may need beefier centrifugal pumps than initially thought to get sufficient flow (and/or I did a poor job on designing the flow frame!). I'll be ordering the next couple sizes up of the same type of pump to see how much of a difference that makes.

    Once we have good flow conditions the plan is to test the same Zn-I chemistry as the benchtop scale, but with about a liter of total electrolyte. Also need to get a battery cycler working for the larger currents needed at this scale, have two solutions for this right now, most likely is a MightyWatt electronic load I already have set up as a cycler (like here: http://kaktuscircuits.blogspot.com/2015/09/mightywatt-as-li-ion-charger.html).

    General Discussion

  • Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery
    kirkK kirk

    Hi all, and apologies for the delay! This year has started off with quite a lot of administrative burden for me and I haven't had as much time for research as I anticipated.

    @Santiago-Eduardo said in Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery:

    Elektrolyte:
    The group noticed that two slightly different electrolyte compositions are mentioned.

    Sorry for the confusion, the correct mass composition can be found in the documentation here: https://fbrc.codeberg.page/rfb-dev-kit/electrolyte.html, the masses listed will prepare approximately 10 mL of electrolyte.

    @Santiago-Eduardo said in Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery:

    They assume an 880 ml volume for one single cell. Do you estimate this volume to maintain the obtained results until now? Is this the volume foreseen to achieve the 22 Wh/single large-format cell?

    Yes this would be correct volume scaling for the large-format cell, although of course still a lot smaller than an eventual life-size system! It is basically t]e volume that we will end up using for our tests of the large-format cell (still to come).

    @Santiago-Eduardo said in Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery:

    The group is assuming the EE value to estimate this. This value does not include energy demand from pumps and electronics, correct?

    Correct, these losses are often summed up in RFB literature as "balance-of-plant" or BoP if you want to search for some values.

    @Santiago-Eduardo said in Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery:

    Meaning: to store 1 Wh, 1.56 Wh needs to be taken from the grid (excluding electronics and pumps). Does this make sense, or are we oversimplifying here?

    You've got it exactly!

    @Santiago-Eduardo said in Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery:

    Used electricity
    For the same purpose of modelling the use phase, it is important to define from which country and what type of energy/electricity is being used to charge the electrolyte. Since the users of the FBRC battery can be anywhere, but are currently mostly centered in Europe, the group has decided to choose the European electricity grid mix data to represent the current FBRC reality.

    This makes sense to me.

    @Santiago-Eduardo said in Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery:

    The separator, for instance, would be one of these peripheral impacts, since it would need to be replaced after some cycles (probably faster than the electrolyte). Since cycle durability of photo paper is still unknown, the group will model different scenarios from 10–100 cycles in steps of 30 cycles. Do you feel this is a reasonable range? Do you already now conditions such as density and flow rate the larger cell will work with? The group will assume 4 layers for the larger cell although in some parts are 3 layers stated.

    While separators can be replaced, I am doubtful in an industrial system that they would, due to the labor costs. From my understanding, Li-ion lifetimes are often given as 2,000 cycles to 80% of initial capacity; for flow batteries, the data isn't as solid, but for VRFB the lifetime claims are more on the scale of 20,000 cycles or 20 years, whichever comes sooner (taken with a grain of salt...). We haven't done any testing that long-term, so don't have much for your to extrapolate, but RFB technoeconomic papers with operation and maintenance (O&M) costs incorporated would give you a good idea of membrane/pump replacement
    frequency (if ever). I would increase the cycle range to much longer terms, with the upper end in the 1,000s at least.

    We aren't yet locked-in on flow rates for the large cell as we are still settling on choice of pumps and flow field design.

    @Santiago-Eduardo said in Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery:

    The current BOM and building instructions do not provide specific links to purchase the necessary chemicals. To model the electrolyte production, including the transportation of each chemical, the group has assumed the following production locations based on market data and worldwide production trends. If your own experience differs in this, please do not hesitate to comment.

    These assumptions all make sense to me; Daramic separator (which we also use in addition to paper depending on the test) can/is produced in the EU though not exclusively.

    I hope this clears things up for you all somewhat, and again, sorry for the delay!

    General Discussion

  • Following your documentation – feedback & questions
    kirkK kirk

    @gus said in Following your documentation – feedback & questions:

    However, it is a more energy-consuming solution, so it doesn’t seem suitable as a final approach for a large battery system.

    This "pulling through the cell" configuration is only possible with peristaltic pumps on the small scale, centrifugal pumps wouldn't handle this, due to net positive suction head/cavitation issues---this approach wouldn't end up in a real, real-world system, but we're going to recommend it for now at the benchtop scale to make testing easier!

    General Discussion

  • Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery
    kirkK kirk

    Also, @Santiago-Eduardo mentioned you'd need parts by weight, manufacturing process, and material---this is certainly possible, though of course the design will evolve. I think it makes much more send to to this with our "large-format cell" (https://codeberg.org/FBRC/RFB-large-format-cell) as it is closer to a real system, than our dev kit (https://codeberg.org/FBRC/RFB-dev-kit), which is used to test new electrolytes and materials.

    I think we can just build columns for weight, manufacturing process, and material, into the BOM of the project (which is currently in the README at https://codeberg.org/FBRC/RFB-large-format-cell). It will also eventually include tubing, pumps, reservoir, etc.

    General Discussion

  • Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery
    kirkK kirk

    Rieke & the rest of your team,

    First off, apologies for the delay! It's been quite a busy period, I'm sorry to keep you waiting.

    I personally think Option 1 would be more useful in terms of research output. While end-scale RFBs will have systems to address potential leakage - and leakage can certainly happen (see https://fbrc.nodebb.com/topic/54/the-ultimate-demise-of-my-last-redflow-zcell) - leakage should not happen, at all, period. It is a design/system failure that should be extremely rare and controlled for, and systems will usually already have a form of secondary containment, so that leakage doesn't enter the local environment. It would be hard to quantify in the ways you ask, since normally if there's a leak, you stop everything, fix the source of the leak, and start over.

    For Option 1, the electrolyte and membrane choice certainly do affect each other, but also strongly affect the system as a whole, independently. I think it would be hard to just isolate to their linked effects between electrolyte and membrane.

    @Rieke-Huesmann said in Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) for the FBRC redox-flow battery:

    Information we would need (please provide as much information as possible):
    • How the selected electrolyte interacts with different membrane materials and which parameters are considered for choosing the electrolyte-membrane pairing

    At FBRC, we have selected membranes that are easily available (ruling out exotic ion-exchange membranes), affordable (so no Nafion), and chemically compatible with the electrolytes we test (so, in neutral/acidic aqueous media, oxidizing/reducing conditions).

    Purely in terms of material properties, a good membrane will have a high selectivity-it lets the ions you want (supporting electrolyte ions, e.g. potassium, chloride) through, and blocks ions you don't (e.g. charged triiodide molecules). Normally, an ion-exchange membrane (IEM) will allow either cations or anions through. Because there are no good cheap IEMs available for our use, we have just been using paper and other porous separators designed for batteries, like Daramic (designed for lead-acid systems). These are not very selective, but they are good enough for our use. A bonus of porous separators is that they are more conductive than IEMs, which leads me to...

    Conductivity - this is just Ohm's Law, V = IR. You want the membrane's resistivity R to be as low as possible, so that the voltage drop across the membrane V, which is wasted energy, is as low as possible at a fixed current I. Resistivity is simply the inverse of conductivity. Again, we don't actively screen for this, because we find Daramic and paper to work well enough for testing - but it is because they meet our criteria. Nafion would certainly be more selective, and give us higher couloumbic efficiencies, but would be less conductive and cost way more (probably worse environmentally too, since it is fluorinated and has a complicated manufacturing process vs. porous separators).

    So, to resume: availability, affordability, selectivity, conductivity (you want all of these values to be high!).

    • Measured efficiencies of the current electrolyte-membrane selection

    Here are the rough efficiencies for the system, they are likely slightly improved with some modifications we've made since this blog post: conditions, and results.

    • Background on membrane selection in the development kit (e.g. which specific materials were chosen and why)

    addressed above, I hope!

    • How is the material wear currently counteracted (replacement only)?

    Right now, we use a new membrane/separator for each test, in order to have repeatable results. It's possible to replace separators in a real stack but it would be very labor intensive/cost-prohibitive in a real stack. To my knowledge, I haven't heard of companies replacing membranes in the field, unless they have a big failure and they're under warranty - they probably just send the whole stack back to the factory and replace it with a new one, I'd wager.

    • How is waste (wastewater, solid waste, co-products from chemical manufacture) disposed of?

    Great question! We don't really have good answers on that. You'd have to look into the specifics of Nafion or lead-acid battery separator production (a very established industry). Also, for the chemicals we work with, they are all available at scale already: zinc chloride, potassium iodide, etc. I'd hope these are known already for their supply chains? I don't have knowledge here I'm afraid. Established chemical commodities like those probably don't have much waste, but could generate co-products as a result of their manufacturing. Iodine and zinc are both recycled, certainly.

    At the end-of-life of an envisioned, full-scale RFB system - an inorganic electrolyte like Zn-I could be recycled with conventional chemical processing means (pH adjustment, precipitation, filtration - lots of techniques for aqueous inorganics). The reservoirs and stack could be recycled, but I doubt immediately reused. Metal current collectors, those are recycled easily. Plastic reservoirs, tubing, stack components - "recycled", as much as plastic is actually recycled - probably incinerated if we're looking at what happens nowadays... The used graphite felts may be able to be recovered or recycled - not sure. Used separators, again, possible to recycle. The main thing is, we don't know much about recycling of RFB stacks is - because not many of them have been built and actually reached end-of-life. They are, though, easy to take apart, which makes separating the constituent components very simple. And, for inorganic electrolytes, there are many established ways to recover the starting compounds, or to re-use in a new RFB system. This is an approach for vanadium RFB companies, some of which try to "lease" their electrolytes for periods of 20 years, because it effectively doesn't degrade (i.e., the vanadium isn't going anywhere).

    I hope this helps, again, sorry for the delay! After the holidays/new year I will be much less busy (December was rough) and so I'll be able to answer more rapidly!

    General Discussion

  • MyStat control software refactor
    kirkK kirk

    This is great sepi! A calibration wizard would be excellent, thanks for taking this on. I cloned your repo and was able to launch it on my PC, happy to help test in the future!

    General Discussion

  • My build (very slowly progressing)
    kirkK kirk

    @sepi Without the four-wire control the pump speeds are definitely harder to manage, sorry to hear that, though the PWM regulator may help. Can you visually see how different the rotation speeds are? That should be rough proxy for volumetric flowrate. I am not surprised they won't spin below 11 V.

    @sepi said in My build (very slowly progressing):

    Is this 20-40ml/min measured with the cell in line or just the pump.

    Ideally best to measure with the cell inline, to be closer to the actual conditions. However, as the tubing wears, this can drift, just FYI. Not a huge deal but something to be aware of.

    @sepi said in My build (very slowly progressing):

    Is the figure obtained with water or electrolyte?

    Water for now, just as a proxy, minimize exposure to electrolyte. This is kind of a 1, maybe 2 significant digit measurement, no more (the volumetric flowrate).

    @sepi said in My build (very slowly progressing):

    What would you recommend doing against the excess flow?

    @sepi said in My build (very slowly progressing):

    the left passing up to 40% more water at the same voltage.

    At the same voltage, is the left pump spinning at (nearly) the same rate as the right? if they are spinning at the same rotational speed and the left is passing 40% more water, it sounds like there is some flow restriction in the right pump's flow loop. If they have identical flow loops (in terms of pressure drop), and are set at the same voltage, I would guess that they should rotate at similar speeds, but this may not be the case for the brushed motors (e.g. variance in motor properties).

    What is important for testing, is that both pumps are above a minimum flowrate to ensure good mass transfer, and that the pressure imbalance between the two sides isn't too great as to cause transfer of electrolyte from one side to another through the separator. If the flowrates aren't perfectly matched but those two previous conditions are met, it's not a big issue, although it's just better for repeatability for them to be the same.

    General Discussion

  • New member introduction thread!
    kirkK kirk

    Hi @Santiago-Eduardo, and welcome! We'd definitely be interested in collaborating, I will reach out to you via email. Thank you for the invitation!

    General Discussion

Member List

kirkK kirk
  • Login

  • Don't have an account? Register

  • Login or register to search.
Powered by NodeBB Contributors
  • First post
    Last post
0
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • Users
  • Groups