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  • Only Fe system

    Electrolyte Development
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    Second cycle already showed heavy degradation, so I stopped the test [image: 1756793699759-996048f2-9ba6-4c8f-bcae-7d5e4888392d-image.png] Will wait for the Mg, Ca chlorides before doing another test. Just urea doesn't seem to work well enough.
  • Thin sleeves to insulate screws (no more tape)

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  • Designing the large-format cell

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    @Vorg A spill of a container full of charged electrolyte would off gas a lot of I2, which at those amounts is a big health risk. I sadly don't have a space where I could have that happen and then be able to ventilate that safely, nor do I have a spare room I could dedicate entirely to the project. So as far as I go, I will test with just water. We will likely get a space to do active material testing safely, but probably not until sometime next year. If any of you guys can do this testing safely and feel comfortable doing so, you can also take a shot! As with our kit, all the materials for this are open source.
  • Alternative Electrolytes

    Electrolyte Development
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    sepiS
    @danielfp248 huh, that makes a lot of sense.
  • Separator material

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    sepiS
    @danielfp248 ah, that makes sense as a last resort measure but would it not be nice to not lose charge? Well it all depends on how easiy it is to counteract by setting a different flow for the different electrolytes.
  • Tygon chemical for sale

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  • My build (very slowly progressing)

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    @sepi @danielfp248 Thanks for the quick and thorough answers! You should add those points to the docs unless you feel that this might potentially create legal trouble. I think we can add these as reasonable guidelines, we will include clarification that waste disposal should always be consulted with local regulations though. About the PPE, I was wearing nitrile gloves, cotton work cloths and plastic safety glasses (not closed though). I felt reasonably safe That seems adequate, especially if adequate ventilation is also in place. The quantities are small, so hopefully this also reduces the risk. About the copper carbonate for precipitation, would that be the natural one or basic one? Since I'm curious and want to bring my chemistry skills up to date: how do you know that this will cause precipitation? Is this compound used frequently for precipitation? Is this about chemical potential of copper iodide (s) and zinc carbonate (s) being lower than the sum of their respective ions (aq) in solution? This is because Zn carbonate and Cu iodide are insoluble so a double displacement reaction occurs and both fall out of solution. There is an additional complication in that Cu+2 does oxidize I- to elemental I2, so you will also have some solid iodine formation. What precipitates is actually Cu(I) iodide. You can add some Na thiosulfate if you want to make sure all iodine precipitates as copper (I) iodide.
  • Theoretical Practical tank size limit

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    @Vorg We will slowly get there but no, right now we don't have any kWh capacity battery. As I mentioned, it will be several years before we get there. The fun is to walk this path and make everything open source on the way.
  • Fe-Mn

    Electrolyte Development
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    @muntasirms I've done several experiments on Fe/Mn and Zn/Mn chemistries. The problem with Mn2+ is the formation of the solid MnO2 phase and the presence of the metastable Mn3+. Forming solid MnO2 poses a non-trivial constraint on the battery, as it limits deposition per area to around a few mAh/cm2, very impractical for a flow battery, furthermore, Mn3+ formation causes MnO2 to form away from the electrode (as it disproportionates into Mn2+ and MnO2), causing some Mn to become lost around the battery system. A possibility is to try to stabilize Mn3+ somehow (for example with Mn-EDTA), but the main issue is that even this stabilized Mn3+ is unstable and eventually self-degrades by oxidizing the chelate around the Mn atom. I tried creating a flow battery system with Fe-DTPA/Mn-EDTA, which has a max solubility of around 0.5M, but the system did not cycle due to the Mn-EDTA being too unstable. There are a few posts on my blog about this. The oxidized Mn-EDTA is also quite sensitive to pH, so it is hard to create conditions under which it is stable. Mn3+ can also be stabilized with HCl+H2SO4, but only at very low concentrations (there's a paper on using this in a flow battery, but only very low capacities are achieved). Another possibility is to stabilize MnO2 as nanoparticles in solution. This can be achieved through the use of TiO2+ in sulfuric acid (using titanyl sulfate). Such systems are quite harsh from a chemical perspective, so I haven't tested them at all (I don't want to run a 3M sulfuric acid system containing reactive Ti compounds). You can read more about this system here (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378775322000209). This is one of the most interesting and potentially viable Mn chemistries out there although only reaching around 17Wh/L. Honestly Mn based systems are best suited for static batteries, where the formation of the MnO2 and Mn3+ phases is less problematic.
  • New member introduction thread!

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    @sepi Thank you for your welcome. I'm located in germany, "nord-oberpfalz". I would take 5m at this price, (I just now only need less than 1m) just to have some in reserve for further experiments. How can I get in contact with you? Paying in advance would be no problem.
  • MyStat PCBs for free

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    @sepi Hi, if you do the selling of the tube, I would order 2 (two) meters.
  • RFB University

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    sepiS
    @danielfp248 sorry, my question was not well formulated. I meant a potential between the electrolytes inside the cell independently the possibility of measuring them using an electrode. Or to formulate it differently, if you cut through the cell (lile you cut a sandwich) and plotted the electrical potential between the electrodes, how would it look like?
  • Blog: czahl's build

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    @czahl I am a huge fan of trying this, especially for the larger format where setups are likely to be more permanent. As kirk mentioned we have never actually tried it, so please let us know if you do!
  • Yeah… That went well.

    Blogs redflow solar victron
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  • Towards a working system

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    @muntasirms Absolutely! A bunch of other great documentation on here, wanted to try to my part. I have a colleague who uses HIPS exclusively in strong alkaline systems. Significantly easier to print than PP from my limited experience. It's not pure polystyrene (which is great for alkaline), but the additive(s) don't seem to affect their tolerance too much. I'll keep you posted on compatibility as I test these systems! Not sure how long the parts will last yet.
  • Adopting the Contributor Covenant

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    @kirk In general this is exactly the way how all of us should act here (and in all other open source projects). But it is always better to have something like this in advance and it does not harm. I highly welcome to have a written code of conduct. Thanks Kirk, for taking care.
  • Systems engineering and modeling

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    @kirk @sepi I think Bert's models are free to download off his site, but if you wanted to read the paper, I'm happy to email them to you or you can reach out to him for a copy.
  • Sourcing parts

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    kirkK
    On it, thanks @sepi !
  • All-copper

    Electrolyte Development
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    @Vorg The reaction is not of elemental iodine with Zinc metal, it is of triiodide with Zinc metal. While this reaction is very exothermic, it is not explosive in this context because of a few reasons: While all the Zn is deposited at the same spot the oxidized iodine is distributed through the entire catholyte volume, so if the membrane ruptures it takes a while for the reaction to happen, it doesn't all happen at once. There is a lot of water here, which carries a lot of thermal load. While you can generate a lot of heat on membrane rupture, it isn't even enough to boil the solution at 100% SOC (from my experience). Per point 1, only a small fraction of iodine is able to react at any given point and for more to react flow must be present. Zn here is bulk Zn, it is not powedered or finely divided at all I have seen this happen experimentally at high SOC at 2M KI using photopaper. The membrane ruptured at high SOC and what I saw was the volume all shift mostly to one side and the potential drop very quick. Nothing exploded, melted or anything that dangerous. Untreated photopaper is obviously not intended to be a long term use membrane, it is intended as a viable membrane to carry out short term testing that is very easily accessible. To use it long term it is necessary to increase its lifetime with a PVA coating or something along these lines. The most dangerous scenario in my experience is solid iodine forming in the cathode, blocking flow and causing tubing to unhook, this then splashes charged electrolyte, which is a considerably greater hazard. The use of triethylene glycol seeks to mostly prevent this scenario, but it is still possible if very high currents are used or the cell is overcharged to high potentials (>1.6V). With the above said, the anolyte and catholyte hold a lot of energy and mixing them obviously instantaneously discharges all that energy. At 10mL of total volume this is not much, around 250mWh but when using larger volumes this is a considerable risk and larger scale devices must be created and tested with this potential scenario in mind. About the copper, oxygen in it would ruin the electrolyte because it would oxidize Cu+ to Cu+2 and this reaction would also increase the pH of the anolyte. This would eventually cause Cu hydroxide to fall out and kill the device. To recover the cell you would need to purge the electrolyte with Argon, cycle the solution over Cu metal to reduce the oxidized Cu2+ back to Cu+ and add hydrochloric acid to adjust the pH back to the proper level if necessary. To run a cell like this you need to make the system quite airtight and ensure the electrolyte is purged with Argon from the start. An idea to test for a period under oxygen-present conditions is to keep a piece of sacrificial copper in the anolyte reservoir to make sure that any Cu2+ that is formed is reduced back, so that way you would only succumb to the slow pH up creep. However this means that the CE you measure isn't really fair, because you are not accounting for a huge chunk of active material present there. It can be useful however to cycle and perhaps get some insights into other sections of the system under a regular atmosphere. However I don't honestly know if this is good enough, as the reaction of Cu+ with oxygen is quite fast. The copper chloride (I) initial electrolyte is usually prepared like this (under copper metal) to make sure there is no Cu2+ present when first loading the electrolyte into the device.
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    sepiS
    @gus nice! That's the spirit! Keep us up to date please. I'm almost done building the thing. Printing the PP parts right now then I just need to wait for the pumps, tubing and potentiostat to arrive.

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